All About Citizen Academies
with Clayton Fulton and Shelly Klein of Hurst, Texas
In this episode we discuss what a citizen academy is and how it helps foster better relationships between citizens and leaders. Clayton and Shelly share what they have learned from years of doing these academies to help other cities interested in starting their own!
You can watch it above or listen on your favorite podcast platform: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify
Transcript below:
Ron:
I’m very excited for you to hear from our guests today on the show. With us, we have Clayton Fulton and Shelley Klein from Hurst, Texas. Hurst is a suburb of Dallas with a population of over 40,000 people. Clayton Fulton is assistant city manager of Hurst, Texas and has an MPA with a focus on local government management and financial analysis. Clayton’s working life started in construction where he learned to lay brick and found that blueprints don’t always come together perfectly. Every project requires adaptation and creativity to ensure that the project comes to existence according to the plan. As a result, Clayton has a pragmatic approach to adapting plans in real time. He helps the city turn abstract ideas or blueprints into reality while getting the most out of their finite resources. Also with us is Shelley Klein, assistant to the city manager of Hurst, Texas. Shelly has a family history of public service and leadership. She began working for local government in the police department at age 16. She spent most of her public service career working with IT and networks, but now with her MPA, she has moved into the world of city management. Shelly currently focuses on budgets and planning, so I hope you enjoy what Clayton and Shelly have to share with us today. All righty. Clayton, over to you. I’d like, I understand you were almost a movie star. Tell us about that.
Clayton:
Yeah, it was by accident. Sometimes I like to joke that I’m an almost former child star. When I was younger, I had a younger brother that was into gymnastics and I was not, and was not very active, and my mom got the idea to try to get him into modeling and drug me with her to meet with the talent agent. And he saw somebody that fit kind of the desired casting call for the catcher in the movie Sandlot. And so my younger brother never ended up modeling, and my mom’s chubby son got the chance to audition for a movie. and for a series of callbacks I landed on a very small role where I played on first base in the opening scene of the movie. And with a lot of fanfare with my friends, I went on opening night and found out my part had been cut and I had no idea <laugh>. So it was a maturing experience for sure. That was a little painful in my formative years. but I still get a royalty check. I actually got one just about two weeks ago for a whopping $35. So it’s the gift that keeps on giving.
Ron:
You haven’t made your millions on Sandlot apparently.
Clayton:
No. Just probably close to thousands. <laugh>
Ron:
Not bad.
Clayton:
Yeah. And, and then I had a few other opportunities and, and kind of close calls, but things never quite panned out. And you know, it gets a little rough on a, a kid in his teenage years being told all the things wrong with him physically when he goes to movie auditions. So I, I found out I didn’t wanna be in the limelight. I kind of like staying behind the scenes,
Ron:
<laugh>. Oh, what a great story. And Shelly, you started with the police department at 16. How did that happen?
Shelly:
well, it was a office education class partnership with Trinity High School in the city of Euless. And they hired me as a records clerk in the police department and never went anywhere else city government ever since.
Ron:
How long did you work for the police department?
Shelly:
For 15 years. And then I moved into IT for the City of Euless.
Ron:
Oh, very good. Oh, that’s excellent. Excellent. All righty. Well, anyway, I’d like to continue on. Cities face real challenges in engaging their citizens. And we spoke earlier about something that you’re doing in Hurst. It’s been quite successful, called Citizen Academies. Is it Citizens Academies or Citizen Academies?
Shelly:
Citizen. Well, I guess it would be Citizens Academy,
Ron:
Citizens Academies. Okay. Well, hey, Clayton, what is the Citizen Academy and how did it get started?
Clayton:
So I’ve only been with Hurst for about six and a half years, and, and Shelly correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it predates your time here as well. And I think it was a council driven initiative to try to engage citizens to understand more about their local government and help them be prepared to serve on boards and commissions. if, if you can imagine the feeling toward government is not always positive, and sometimes local government operations get viewed through this lens that we’re just like the federal government. we’re, we’re not, we’re required to have a balanced budget under state law. And so there’s a lot of good that local government does when you think about public safety parks, recreational opportunities, maintaining, maintaining streets providing water and, and wastewater services. And so our council I think it was pretty visionary at the time, decided we ought to kind of have this series of classes that citizens can, can come and learn more about what it is that Public Works does, and how much effort it goes in to provide clean drinking water at your home.
And all the, the training and exercises and education that public safety has to go through. And, and I get the joy of talking to ’em about property taxes, sales taxes, budgets, and audits. but you know, I’ve found, you know, I’ve been doing it here for six and a half years. the prior city I worked for did something very similar. I have found it to be very productive and you develop some good relationships with the participants. And I can say with almost without exception, I’ve never had anybody come away thinking, what a waste of time. And I can’t believe my city’s so bad. They’d come away saying, this was very valuable, and I’ve learned a lot about what the city does, and I had no idea what it takes.
Ron:
Fascinating. Shelly, you wanna tell us a little bit more about Citizens Academies? I mean, what’s been your experience and observation?
Shelly:
So I’ve been facilitating it for five years now. we are celebrating our 10th year. Our graduation is next week. Our last class is tonight. my takeaway is creates ambassadors for sure that support the city, and they do, in fact, I had one email me today asking how he can get on a board. So I know a lot of times cities struggle with finding people to serve on boards, so this is a good
Ron:
Uh oh. We just lost Shelly.
Clayton:
Oh, she dropped off.
Ron:
But Clayton, let’s come back over to you. You mentioned that this is city Council driven, and in your experience is that how important is that?
Clayton:
I think having council support is incredibly important because, at the end of the day, staff exists to help meet the council’s priorities. And if staff starts trying to go and, and pursue something that council doesn’t believe in, you start creating an adversarial relationship between the staff and the council. And, you know, there are times where staff will bring something to council saying, Hey, we think this is a good idea. which is the way it, it came to fruition in the city of Anna where I worked before. and then council said, yeah, we agree, we think that’s a great idea. But regardless of where the idea’s Genesis comes from, without council support, I don’t think it’s ever gonna be fully successful.
Ron:
Very good. Shelly, we lost you for just a minute. Yeah. I lost connection. And then while you were gone, we asked Clayton to tell us why council support was so important. But continue on. Tell us a little bit about, about your experience. So for over 10 years you’ve been doing, or there you’ve had Citizen Academies for over 10 years
Shelly:
Yeah. At Hurst, and I know that because I just did the staff report for council meeting because graduation is next Tuesday. and it is our 10th class. wow. And I’ve only been facilitating for five, but I don’t know how much you caught, but I’ll just share that this group already, we’ve got somebody who’s asking how can they serve on a board. And I know that cities do struggle with getting that volunteerism going, and this is a great avenue to do that. And then the personal relationships that I get to build with these people, and they, they stay in touch with me and it’s, I just, I really appreciate that they do.
Ron:
I, I just think this is really amazing stuff. Can you tell me boards, you mentioned boards and that somebody wants to be on a board. Do most of your people who go on to serve on city boards, do they come through this group for, through, through a Citizen academy?
Shelly:
I wouldn’t say all. There’s, there’s a, I don’t know what percentage, if I were to give it a percentage, I’d say maybe 20, 25% go on and serve on our board.
Ron:
They go on to do something
Shelly:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but a lot of ’em also move on to our police Academy, citizens Police Academy, and they serve in that capacity.
Clayton:
And Shelley, you’re saying 25% of participants of the Citizens Academy go on to serve on a board? Yeah. Ron, I think you were asking, you know, how many members of the boards came from Citizens Academy?
Ron:
Correct. And
Clayton:
You know, I, I don’t know that I could put a number on it. it’s probably somewhere north of, of 80, maybe even 90%. but what I can say is the ones that do end up going through Citizens Academy and serving on a board, there’s a stark difference in their effectiveness as a board member because they’re prepared and they understand what it takes to run the city. And so when they serve on the board, they already have that foundation of understanding. Whereas some of the people that end up being appointed to a board that haven’t gone through it sometimes they, they’re not quite as effective. They struggle a little bit more to understand what’s going on. And, and that’s fine. I, you know, as staff we’re prepared for that. but it, it does kind of affect the dynamic of the board when you’ve got somebody on there that doesn’t quite understand what it takes to run the city.
Ron:
I can only imagine the benefit. I serve locally on our planning commission and I went in with eyes wide open, but very, very ignorant literally of what, what the role required. And over the course of a year, I’ve gained that experience, but boy, it would’ve been an advantage to have been through a Citizen Academy before I jumped onto that. What are some of the boards that you have and what are some of the roles that these people are helping you fulfill in your city?
Clayton:
Shelly, feel free to jump in cuz you, you probably have a better feel for all of them. we have obviously our city council, they’re the governing board. They make the final decision on, on all matters as it relates to, you know, city policy. But we do have a planning and zoning commission where they will review development plans. You know, if somebody wants to change the zoning on their property, you know, for example, if there’s a, a vacant piece that’s zoned residential, but somebody wants to build multifamily on it. and there, as you can imagine, there’s a significant amount of laws that regulate how that process goes. both our local ordinances as well as state law. And so somebody who maybe doesn’t go in, you know, humble and, and eyes wide open might think that, well, I’m gonna deny this this request simply because I don’t like it.
You know, and, and they, they can, but sometimes you can run into some political issues when you start denying development, when maybe they have a legal right to do what they’re requesting. There’s just a, a technical piece that needs to be accomplished. we also have a, a transportation infrastructure and safety committee that is really meant to, like Shelly talked about kind of being an ambassador, but as we undertake road projects you know, we, we run it through that committee first. if there’s a, we had a, a road in town that was being used as a, as a cut through to save some time. And as you can imagine, you know, the speed limit’s, you know, 20, 25 miles an hour and they’re going 40 down it because they don’t wanna sit in traffic and they’re trying to be quick. and, and this is where that board can be very effective.
The the citizens came saying, we wanna close our street. We wanna make it a private road. And it’s not that simple, you know? And so we had some good members on that board that could talk to those citizens and try to help ’em understand why it’s not that simple. you know, and, and then we came up with a solution that helped calm traffic and the members of that board were very effective in helping work with the citizens as well as staff. It was, it was a joint effort. we also have oh, help me out, Shelly. We have a historic preservation committee. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> we have our parks board. and you know, so as there’s park projects that come up, the, the board vets those first, you know, working with different youth youth sports leagues, recreation leagues, you know, the board will look at those contracts before and they provide a, an added level of, of resource and citizen oversight before it goes to the council.
And so like planning and zoning commission, if there’s things that go through these boards first, ultimately council makes the decision, but they can rely on knowing there’s a group of citizens that understand how the city works that have taken the time to review this and make a recommendation for us. And then we can take that recommendation as we deliberate on it and make our decision. you know, when you look at the city council as it’s presently constituted, I think with maybe two exceptions, you know, so five of the seven had served parks border planning and zoning commission prior to being elected to city council. And so they, they really have a, a good solid foundation of how the city operates, you know, what the citizens think and what’s important to them. And, and so it, it does become a really useful like Shelly said, you build ambassadors and people that understand. Did I miss anything, Shelly?
Shelly:
Well, there’s several more boards and commissions, but I, I don’t know if you wanna go through all of them.
Ron:
No, not necessarily, but I think this is really helpful and the end result of, but the point that you were making is that maybe upwards of 80% of the people who go on these boards and commissions come through this academy. Shelly, can you help me understand the, the, the, a little bit about the coursework and how that was developed and what kind of like, like how long does the typical class last, you know, or, or, or day how many of them are there? What’s the basic structure of one of your citizens academies?
Shelly:
So we start in January of each year. we meet every other Thursday evening. The timeframe is from 6:00 to 8:00 PM each department gives their own presentation because who knows their business better, you know oh, so you just have the parks come in or the police come in or whoever come in, right?
Yeah, we actually have the citizens meet at the facility that they’re gonna learn about. And so they get about an hour of presentation from an expert in that department. And then we incorporate a tour and Q&A time, which they really enjoy. And we also provide little box dinner for them. But the open Q&A is where it’s really valuable because when you’re able to ask a specific question that may have been on your mind and get an answer for it, that’s more of a learning value than a presentation. But the presentation is still necessary. <laugh>.
Ron:
Oh, no, that’s huge. Yeah. And we, and so this goes from January until when, how many, how many classes,
Shelly:
There’s nine classes total, and then graduation. So we’re having class nine this evening at fire station one, and that’ll be it. And then we graduate with the city council, the mayor and council present them with certificates and then they move on and hopefully start helping the city with, in other, another capacity on a board or commission.
Ron:
Wow. Excellent. Hey, Ryan, my partner in crime do you have any questions you want to ask?
Ryan:
well, first of all, I just wanted to say I think it’s really amazing how well this is working. And it seems like Clayton and Shelly have provided a, a solid reasoning for why a city should do a Citizen’s Academy because every city is gonna have boards and they’re gonna have citizens on those boards and seems like it’s better for them to know what’s going on when they get to that point than than not, right. So what, what kind of challenges would you see for other cities that would want to implement citizens Academy? Why would you not have one?
Shelly:
Do you want me to answer first?
Ron:
Or, or if you were to do it over again, what would you recommend for a city who’s just getting started? Shelly, let’s start with you.
Shelly:
So we did implement changes this year prior to the nine years prior to this year it was pretty much all presentation and I read an article in Texas Town and Cities, I believe about another city that was doing it. And I, the presentation, as I said, is necessary, but to make it more interactive and more fun and let people, for example, tonight they’re gonna be touching a fire engine. they’re gonna hold a fire hose. They’re, there’s just more hands on and that just, it makes it more successful and it also makes it, I’ve noticed that this class particularly has had, they used the word fun and they’re gonna tell all their friends about it and for next year. So I think making something more interactive, if you’re gonna start it, don’t just be classroom lecture time. Make sure that they are getting that hands-on experience.
Ryan:
I, that sounds good to me.
Clayton:
I appreciate you mentioning that, Shelly, and I’ll, I’ll kind of throw myself under the bus. you, you’ve got kind of two factors working against you. Not everybody’s a great presenter. Sure. you know, I, I don’t hire a Public Works director based on his ability to present to the public. You know, if that’s my number one factor, I’m probably hiring wrong. you know, and so you, you may have really engaging content, but the presenter may not be a great presenter, you know, and, and you can work on that. And then you may have the inverse where you may have a really great presenter, but the content is just a beat down. You know, when, when I present, you know, I’ve got a 350, 400 page budget and I’m going through audit and I’m talking about taxes, and I don’t know about y’all, but there’s a very slim group of the population that actually enjoys that stuff. most people would rather I think just, you know you know, shove an ice pick under their fingernail or something.
Ron:
They, they ask for the Cliff Notes version, right?
Clayton:
Yeah, yeah. <laugh>. And so I, I really struggled with how do I make this engaging? Because I don’t wanna just thump ’em over the head with accounting terms and, you know, budget, taxes, audit and all that stuff. and so when Shelly brought this up, and I don’t remember who had the idea, Shelly, I, I’ll, I’ll credit to you because I, I can certainly say I don’t think it was mine. we had a new animal shelter and dog park that was open within the last year and a half, two years. And I thought, what a great idea when Shelly brought this to me, is I can talk them through the process of how this building came to be through the planning and financial side, and then give ’em a tour of it. You know, and, and I think people’s eyes were open that it wasn’t just as simple as, Hey, we issued 7 million dollars in debt and built this building. you know, it’s, it’s a lot more complex than that. And,
Ron:
You know, you know, that’s a fascinating thing to take him through a case study, right? I mean, this is how the budget is determined and this is what the results can be, right?
Clayton:
Yeah. And, and anytime we issue debt for a project, you know, and I’ve, I’ve done this a handful of times here in my other city, I always get a little bit anxious just because I have to have a number to issue debt for. It’s gotta be backed up by something realistic. But you know, like you said in the intro, nothing ever really goes according to plan. So I may talk to the engineers, the architects, the contractor, and say, it’s gonna cost 7 million. I go to market, I issue 7 million in bonds. And then we get on site and find, oh no, we missed something. Or inflation kicks in or a pandemic hits. And so what do you do when you issued 7 million in debt and maybe for good reason that project costs eight and a half million, you know? And then you can have the inverse where you issued 7 million in debt and you found some savings along the way and it only cost me 6 million.
You know, what I do with that extra million now that I’m paying you know, interest on and having to collect property taxes to cover the debt payment. And so there’s a lot of thought and planning to make sure that we get that number as close as we can and then have contingencies built in. And you know, so sometimes we might be criticized that when we do issue the debt, the ordinance that council approves calling for, it can sound really broad. Well, that’s on purpose. Cuz if I get to the end of the project and I’ve got some money left over, maybe I can go fix some streets or some storm drains or what not, you know, to make sure I’m not just sitting on, you know, debt proceeds I can’t spend. Right.
Ron:
And all of this is covered in your coursework.
Clayton:
Yeah. Yep.
Ron:
Alright. Hey, we’re gonna, we, let’s, we’re gonna be wrapping this up now, but I’d love to have your final thoughts. Let’s say there’s a city who’s never done this before, they’re interested, they’d love to learn more. Like what are a couple of things just as they get their minds going, they ought to, to, to plan to do and and think through as they get this started. Shelly, what would you if you’re in a brand new city helping somebody go through it, what’s a few things you’d recommend?
Shelly:
Well, along the line of budget you would need to find the money to support it because they’re, in our case, you know, we’re providing, it’s not a lot of money, but to provide that meal if you’re gonna do it in the evening. And the other is definitely I would discuss it with staff first because they would be the ones putting the work towards each class. And then of course city manager buy-in. And then of course, you know, I think you’d have, you have to have your council behind it. I don’t see where any council wouldn’t wanna be behind like something like that. But I would be definitely an upfront thing and then call other cities that are doing it and compare, get ideas.
Ron:
Well done. Clayton, do you have any final thoughts on that?
Clayton:
Yeah one thing I want to add real quick, just kind of a humorous anecdote. when Shelly mentioned just having the budget for it I made the point, my presentation, we provided a box lunch from a, a local deli. And the amount that they paid in property taxes on average per day didn’t cover the meal that they ate that night that the city provided. You know? And, and there was people that just couldn’t believe it, you know? And so I kind of walked through that with ’em. but you, you do gotta plan for it, you know, financially. Because depending on how much the city wants to do and, and the nature of the city, you know, there may not be enough meeting space, you know? Right. So you may be renting out meeting space, you know, the city I came from, we had every single one in the city council chambers because there just really wasn’t room anywhere else to hold.
Ron:
Only other place you could do it. Yeah.
Clayton:
Fascinating. you know, and, and Shelly made some really excellent points. one thing that I thought was curious when I came here is you had to apply to go through Citizens Academy,
Ron:
Right? I was wondering about that. How does somebody participate and what, what, how does that happen? How does, how do, how do you
Clayton:
Recruit? And so Shelly can, can give some of the details, but just to wrap up my thought real quick, I, I just think was thinking, why would we do that? Why would we make people apply if you want to participate, let’s let ’em participate. but there were some learning experiences where you had some, some people who were related attend the same course and they started kind of bickering with each other about an issue, you know? And, and so there, there should be in my mind a little bit of a vetting process also because if you say it’s, it’s open to anybody who wants to, to participate, you may have a year where you have 60 people apply and then you may not have the space to accommodate all 60. Right, right. You know, and, and so on its face, it sounded like something that I didn’t agree with.
But then as I got here and realized, okay, this makes a lot of sense, because my perspective was kind of a semi-rural smaller city where we were lucky to have, you know, eight to 10 people that were even interested. So, and, and then one kind of final parting thought that Shelly mentioned as well, I just want to, you know, elaborate on a little bit, is it, it is outside of your normal working hours. And so, you know, cuz if you’re gonna invite citizens to come, they’ve got full-time jobs as well. And so you’ve gotta make sure that the staff understands that commitment because it, it does, it’s another night away from home and you’ve got kind of a long working day and you know, there is a lot of preparation that goes into making sure that the, the content you share is useful. And then, like Shelly said, we, we kind of flip the script this year and try to make it more interactive. And so then you’re coordinating the use of equipment and making sure that you’ve got your staff there that know how to operate it and can kind of show how it works. And so there, there’s a lot that goes into it.
Ron:
Perfect. Shelly, any final, final thoughts on vetting before we wrap it up?
Shelly:
Yeah, I, I do like the, we have an online application so it’s easy for them to apply, but the purpose of it is, you know, come October I’ll start calling all applicants and some of ’em that apply actually don’t live in the city of hers. So that’s one of ’em. You wanna make sure that they are residents of your city and that they’re willing to commit, they need to understand the commitment because we do have a requirement that you’ve gotta be, attend seven of the nine meetings in order to graduate. so it just, they, they absolutely need to understand what a commitment it is and not bail on you halfway through.
Ron:
So. Good. Well, Clayton and Shelly, what a pleasure. I think we went over time a little bit and I’m glad we did. There was so much to be, to be learned and we look forward to talking with you about some other topic in the future.
Clayton:
Sure. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun.
Shelly:
Thank you.
